Rob Henderson linked to this interesting post. Got to thinking that maybe you are right about this. If so, maybe suicide is similar to an immune system overreaction, the result of strategies that when accumulated has the result of being self destructive to a fatal degree.
First, thanks for the kind words! To your point, I sometimes think about defenses as being a bit like dials. They get turned up or down depending on one’s experiences. So it’s good to be afraid of heights, but it’s bad to be *overly* afraid of heights, with your fear dial for that one being set too low. (Randy Nesse, who will be on our first podcast, released tomorrow, has a similar view.) So, yes, I think there’s value in this sort of perspective. (Indeed, some people—e.g., Mark Schaller—make the analogy explicit, referring to the “behavioral immune system,” usually in the context of disgust, but the same logic applies here.) But generally, I agree. If one imagines that humans have a ton of defense systems on board then it’s also easy to imagine that these systems get dialed up too high or too low, depending on what I imagine are a host of complicated factors.
Very solid theory, I like it. Equating sadness with neediness also helps to explain why men are more likely to hide their tears in a public setting. I think there might be some secondary functions lurking in the background, (I find that sadness is usually an excellent way to de-stress, for instance) but this is an insightful take, thanks for posting it!
Some thoughts on suicide. If you commit suicide without threatening first some people will say you should of told someone. If you threaten suicide without attempting some people will say you just want attention. Our society isn´t set up with dignified and socially acceptable ways to voice extreme and persistent psychological pain. Except perhaps in therapy. Maybe the professionals are worth their $150 after all.
Fair points. As a Gen Xer, I think I would say that when I was younger, there were fewer ways to ask for help than there are now because of stigmas attached to seeming vulnerable. I don't know if you would agree with that, but if that's the case, then at least culture is moving in a potentially good direction?
This was an interesting read! From a medical perspective - we’re starting to learn a bit more about the underlying physiology of depression now (and along with it, some new hypotheses for evolutionary mechanisms). You might find this Nature Review interesting: https://www.nature.com/articles/nri.2015.5
I look forward to your future article, which I assume will be titled, “anxiety” which is also, and more obviously, an evolutionary adaptation. But when does it become pathologic? And does viewing it as pathology do any good for those who suffer? I think doing so may cause people to internalize and self-blame for their feelings, instead of using them as motivation for change. This is why the “chemical imbalance” theory is so damaging (in my opinion). great article, thanks for sharing.
In terms of top-of-the-world people, I don’t know. I would say that many people who are very high status, such as stars in the media, often wrestle with issues that are hidden from public view. So it could be that someone who seems to be on top of the world is not experiencing life in the way you might think. As for the second question, I’m even less sure. I would say that a feature of the modern world is that we are exposed to lives that nearly everyone will never attain. I wonder if the envy this produces leads many people to high levels of dissatisfaction. There is something to the idea that desire is at the heart of suffering…
I wasnt specific enough with the second one. A thing that Ive lived is people looking to me to regulate their emotions for them, which is impossible. What if a person like that is depressed, and threatens suicide because they want someone to save them from themselves?
Heard an excellent analogy recently: Someone like that is in the basement of a burning house and the stairs are on fire. No one can go down there and drag them out. A great shrink can lower a ladder, but the trapped person has to burn themselves with every step up the ladder.
Well, when I (Rob) ran this post by Josh for editing, he said he would write a follow-up, so I called mine Part I and all we can say for now is... at least one more? We'll see how it goes. :-)
Rob Henderson linked to this interesting post. Got to thinking that maybe you are right about this. If so, maybe suicide is similar to an immune system overreaction, the result of strategies that when accumulated has the result of being self destructive to a fatal degree.
First, thanks for the kind words! To your point, I sometimes think about defenses as being a bit like dials. They get turned up or down depending on one’s experiences. So it’s good to be afraid of heights, but it’s bad to be *overly* afraid of heights, with your fear dial for that one being set too low. (Randy Nesse, who will be on our first podcast, released tomorrow, has a similar view.) So, yes, I think there’s value in this sort of perspective. (Indeed, some people—e.g., Mark Schaller—make the analogy explicit, referring to the “behavioral immune system,” usually in the context of disgust, but the same logic applies here.) But generally, I agree. If one imagines that humans have a ton of defense systems on board then it’s also easy to imagine that these systems get dialed up too high or too low, depending on what I imagine are a host of complicated factors.
Very solid theory, I like it. Equating sadness with neediness also helps to explain why men are more likely to hide their tears in a public setting. I think there might be some secondary functions lurking in the background, (I find that sadness is usually an excellent way to de-stress, for instance) but this is an insightful take, thanks for posting it!
This blog is just great! It's so interesting to think of our real world psychology in an evolutionary framework. Keep it up!
Thanks for the kind words!
Some thoughts on suicide. If you commit suicide without threatening first some people will say you should of told someone. If you threaten suicide without attempting some people will say you just want attention. Our society isn´t set up with dignified and socially acceptable ways to voice extreme and persistent psychological pain. Except perhaps in therapy. Maybe the professionals are worth their $150 after all.
Fair points. As a Gen Xer, I think I would say that when I was younger, there were fewer ways to ask for help than there are now because of stigmas attached to seeming vulnerable. I don't know if you would agree with that, but if that's the case, then at least culture is moving in a potentially good direction?
This was an interesting read! From a medical perspective - we’re starting to learn a bit more about the underlying physiology of depression now (and along with it, some new hypotheses for evolutionary mechanisms). You might find this Nature Review interesting: https://www.nature.com/articles/nri.2015.5
Thanks for the kind words. I'll be sure to have a careful look at that paper. Thanks for the suggestion!
I look forward to your future article, which I assume will be titled, “anxiety” which is also, and more obviously, an evolutionary adaptation. But when does it become pathologic? And does viewing it as pathology do any good for those who suffer? I think doing so may cause people to internalize and self-blame for their feelings, instead of using them as motivation for change. This is why the “chemical imbalance” theory is so damaging (in my opinion). great article, thanks for sharing.
I mostly agree, but a couple of questions came to mind.
What about when people on top of the world commit suicide?
What about people who want more from the people around them, but their idea of what they need is impossible? (Save me from myself.)
In terms of top-of-the-world people, I don’t know. I would say that many people who are very high status, such as stars in the media, often wrestle with issues that are hidden from public view. So it could be that someone who seems to be on top of the world is not experiencing life in the way you might think. As for the second question, I’m even less sure. I would say that a feature of the modern world is that we are exposed to lives that nearly everyone will never attain. I wonder if the envy this produces leads many people to high levels of dissatisfaction. There is something to the idea that desire is at the heart of suffering…
I wasnt specific enough with the second one. A thing that Ive lived is people looking to me to regulate their emotions for them, which is impossible. What if a person like that is depressed, and threatens suicide because they want someone to save them from themselves?
Heard an excellent analogy recently: Someone like that is in the basement of a burning house and the stairs are on fire. No one can go down there and drag them out. A great shrink can lower a ladder, but the trapped person has to burn themselves with every step up the ladder.
I reckon my point is that people are complicated.
GM Josh, may I ask again how long this series will be?
Well, when I (Rob) ran this post by Josh for editing, he said he would write a follow-up, so I called mine Part I and all we can say for now is... at least one more? We'll see how it goes. :-)