If I were to change one thing about my life it would be to have had more children. I am blessed with two but advice to my younger self……have more kids.
Yes, this! I want to shout it from the rooftops. Biggest mistake of our lives was waiting as long as we did to start having kids. Knowing what I know now, I would have 10 kids if I could, but it’s too late. I feel I was deeply misled by my culture, about so many things, but this is sort of the pinnacle. I advise younger people to start having kids in their early-to-mid twenties. Most jobs are not worth delaying a family for, hedonism and self-indulgence gets old, you can in fact still travel with children, money will sort itself out if you’re motivated enough, the future can be a better world if you make it one by raising good people, etc etc. Basically the exact opposite of the messages I got my whole life. We were sold so many lies and now the birthrate is dropping precipitously, it’s like a collective suicide.
Excellent comment. I absolutely agree. The messages we get from society are profoundly anti-natal in some ways. I delayed kids and deeply regret it. As a man I have options of course, but there is a void for sure. I admire the people who understand this (at whatever age) and go for it. I think that is where I am headed.
I agree! This is why we should focus more investment and research into extending the fertility window. We should develop more technology that allows us to have kids later if we want - and encourage everyone to freeze eggs and sperm so this becomes more of an option if you eventually want more kids later on in life.
I agree, Mikhail. I am at this stage myself. I didn't have kids and am now mature although far from being old.
Where I am in the UK I actually do see more older parents. A lot more than I used to. Obviously the women are not that old, typically late 30s. But some of the men are definitely in their fifties. So I do think many have been conned by society and realize almost too late they need to do something. So perhaps this is a growing trend.
You bring up an interesting case. In the article I talked about how it's difficult to regret not having kids because you don't really know what it's like to have them, and difficult to regret having kids partly for evolutionary reasons. But, you can certainly wish you had MORE kids. Anyway, thanks for your comment.
I think this is not quite logically sound. I think it's relatively easy to regret not having kids because we can (and do) certainly have an idea of what it would be like to have them. And evolution has (I'm sure) set our brains up in such a way that we have a generally positive idea of what it would be like. Even if "we don't really know what it's like" before we actually have kids, the idea that we have of it is sufficient to cause regret if we see this idea never becoming reality. It seems to me there are many more people who regret not having kids, or who feel sad about not being able to, than there are who regret having them.
I'm speaking from personal experience as a 43 year old male with no kids (but a strong desire to have them, even if I "dont really know what it's like").
"It seems to me there are many more people who regret not having kids, or who feel sad about not being able to, than there are who regret having them." - Definitely agree with this. I'm not sure, though, that evolution has set our brains to have a generally positive idea of what parenting is like. At least, it seems to me that the more powerful path evolution set up was to undergo a sexual development stage, feel love and lust for someone, have a child as a result, and then parenting modules come online. But I take your point that we can certainly form an idea of what being a parent would be like (even if it's wrong/impossible to know beforehand), desire it, and feel regret if it doesn't happen.
As a parent of two, who started rather late in life, I completely agree. As a man, I knew I could and was happy to have waited, but having kids does in fact relieve some existential tensions. Unfortunately, many of my female contemporaries left it too late, for them. In many cases the current zeitgeist, owned by the Feminist Industrial Complex, fooled, and failed them. Its a huge and growing problem today.
I agree that there is a sense of "letting down the sisterhood" if you become "just a mom." It's a shame when these cultural pressures prevent people from proceeding in ways they would have made them happy. Many of my female clients struggle mightily to "have it all."
Yes, and its a genuine problem. I had kids at 48, but for many many years in Montreal Canada, where I lived, it was very easy to live life as a single in a rich cultural urban environment. Many or even most of my friends and acquaintances married late (or not at all) and many didn't have kids. This is directly tied to low and dropping fertility rate in Canada (and the US). For women who get into this single life mode, its easy to be fooled that it can go on forever.
What was it like having kids at 48? I'm somewhat heartened to see that you did as I'm 43(m) and I would really like to start a family (though currently single). I already start to feel bad about leaving it so late but things just worked out this way in the relationships I had so far. I know as a man I can still father children for a while but of course one also needs to find a partner who is still willing and capable and though I'm not unattractive, I'm also no Leonardo DiCaprio who can keep dating 20 something year olds until he dies of old age ;)
This is the stage I am at. I didn't have them earlier and I am now older, realizing I have made a mistake. Where I am I definitely see more older couples with babies. Many more than I used to. Women in their late 30s with 40s and 50s husbands. Pushing strollers etc.
I think women in particular have been conned by aggressive feminist tropes. And of course the men have been affected too.
But it is nice to see a comment from an older dad. It gives me hope. Thanks for posting.
Thank you. I assume you are male from your name and comment. Def true that Feminism has conned LOTS of people, it is very destructive and has created an ark's worth of women with victim mindsets who have ended their genetic legacy unwittingly. As a man its never too late, although for practical purposes unless you and famous and it gets exponentially harder after 50. Don't give up, date deliberately, date younger but not too young, use good apps for matching, use faith-based resources and connections if you can, open your geography, do good vetting and you can find success.
Absolutely great advice. I am in good shape and youthful, although I guess many say that.
I agree with the faith connection. I am convinced there are late 30s women out there at the same mental stage as me. They partly bought the lie but also drifted a little too far and seek a like-minded man. Hope springs eternal.
I've never had an issue with anxiety, at least consciously. But I used to fear death (or at least not existing). That entirely melted away after my first child. It just make sense. Genetic code passed on, it's all in their little hands now.
Same, I’m not afraid of death anymore. If I were to die young I would have pragmatic concerns like “who’s gonna get these kids raised?” and “I wish I’d been able to gather more money/land/resources/whatever to leave to them,” but the existential fear is gone. I have been a link in the chain of life’s great continuum, I’m happy with that.
I have young kids and feel similarly. My primary concerns about death are practical ones, and my biggest fear now is the psychological impact on my kids if I were to die prematurely.
As with most things after I had kids, my own ego is so far down the list of priorities that I usually don’t have bandwidth to consider it.
I would caution to beware of misconceptions of choice. This is more commonly seen when discussing religion and happiness - Yes, religious people are happier but I cannot choose to believe in god to make myself happier. If you don't want children then having them because some data says that parents are happier is unlikely to work.
I'd disagree with you slightly here because I think those examples are different in two important ways. The first is that when you have kids, there's no going back. Both practically and psychologically, you have to make do with your situation. Whereas with religion, if I'm a nonbeliever today, I can decide to become a believer tomorrow (for happiness' sake), and then become a nonbeliever again the next day. There's no irreversible event; the mind can stay in limbo. The second difference is that there would have been much less evolutionary pressure around religion than parenting. The latent parenting modules I talked about in the article make it very difficult to know, a priori, what your mindset will be like after you have children.
So, while I agree that a person's preference to have or not have children beforehand will affect their experience as a parent, I think this effect is likely to be smaller than for most other decisions in life.
I can't work out whether you're taking the piss? 'Hey, patients complaining about angst, have a kid, and redirect it onto them instead (don't worry about Ill effects - people they hang out with will influence them more). At least temporarily until they grow up, and dont want you in their life anymore - then I'll see you again on the couch!'.
But I have to quibble with this: "why does nobody ever say that having kids was a mistake?" Really? I think you're suffering from severe sample bias. Some people are complete wankers or much much worse (all kids at least for some of their life - it's a statistical guarantee that if they hit adulthood they also go through puberty) and their parents would be lying if they said they didn't regret having them. Anyway, the survey data suggest it's about 10 in every 100. E.g: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/08/why-parents-regret-children/619931/
Appreciate the article. It was a good one. And yes, I agree that I'm subject to sample bias. For example, because of my age, most of the parents I know only have small children. So, no teenagers yet. My clients and friends are also well off, so for the most part, they planned to have children. That surely makes a difference. But even still, I would guess that 10% is pretty low compared to the regret experienced for other major life decisions, such as getting married, buying a house, moving, and following a career path. Then you add the social judgment piece and only a fraction of that 10% are willing to admit their regret. So I don't think I'm alone in rarely hearing expressed regret over children.
I get the impression that there is a minimum necessary level of parenting. That minimum level is vital, but is also lower than most people seem to think.
Absolutely. I've seen a few different people make the argument recently -- Twenge in Generations, Shrier in Bad Therapy -- that over-the-top parenting is partly a result of people having fewer children. I think the "minimum necessary" you're talking about was probably the norm for families in the past who had 5-10 children, and in some cases, that lowered parental intensity was better. For one, it meant kids were playing with and learning from other kids more. And Haidt/Gray have been making the argument that unstructured free play is also beneficial for a number of reasons, which you get more of with more siblings and less parental involvement. Thanks for your comment!
If I read this 9 months ago I would be clueless. But this all makes so much sense as a new dad. For the first time in my life no longer centers around my work- rather my work centers around my life. It’s something to pay the bills and allows me to spend the most time with my son as possible. Nothing else really matters anymore- I don’t even have time to dream beucuse I’m still in survival mode. Anyway, thank you- this helps validate what I’m going through.
Huh, I hadn't been thinking of it specifically from the cognitive dissonance reduction angle but you make a good point that that's basically what it is. Thanks for reading and commenting.
I like your main point here. I also think antinatalism is one of the most grim, decadent in a destructive way, antihuman ideologies out there.
I also think you're generally (and ahistorically) correct about the "evolved module", although I think it's *mostly* present in a female behaviour pattern/mind. I also think that's why women tend to be overall less creative/productive once you substract making and raising children: I might never achieve anything of importance or even meaning in this world due to the combination of lack of talent and focus/grit but I made two humans with my own body and mind. It does feel like a consolation prize, but it is a prize and it's most certainly consolation ;)
But to say that people never admit to regretting reproducing seems just completely disconnected from reality. Plenty of people do admit that, some even to their own offspring (with often unpleasant results), and others (usually but not always male) simply have no interest in engaging in any way (tho admittedly they might not actively regret it and who knows, maybe the idea that their DNA lives on somewhere soothes their existential anxieties). But I don't think you need this argument to maintain your main point.
Are women less creative? I haven't seen any studies suggesting that. To your point about children being a consolation prize for creative output, my friend used to say that having children is the easiest and most profound form of creation. So, something similar to what you're saying, but he meant for all parents.
Also, I agree that some people regret having children. My point is that you rarely hear it expressed because 1) the sentiment is relatively rare and 2) it's an unpopular thing to admit.
Re: philosophy, why do people always seem to expect the truth will make them satisfied and feel fulfilled. Nothing about doing philosophy well requires it reduce anyone's existential dread. Maybe the truth just doesn't make us feel great.
Right, that should be in Philosophy 101: "Don't expect this to make you any happier." I remember reading an article about this in the context of therapy: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27112740/. In any case, truth versus feeling is a constant tension in providing therapy. Many times I can EITHER say something to make the client feel good, or give my account of the truth. So your point about the truth not making us feel great is well taken. The way I have been thinking about it lately is that my job as a therapist is to help clients obtain meaning...in that, the truth is often helpful because any meaning based upon it is secure and reliable. But this doesn't mean I do everything I can to bring home every truth to every client. A lot of times that would just be hurtful and mean.
If I were to change one thing about my life it would be to have had more children. I am blessed with two but advice to my younger self……have more kids.
Yes, this! I want to shout it from the rooftops. Biggest mistake of our lives was waiting as long as we did to start having kids. Knowing what I know now, I would have 10 kids if I could, but it’s too late. I feel I was deeply misled by my culture, about so many things, but this is sort of the pinnacle. I advise younger people to start having kids in their early-to-mid twenties. Most jobs are not worth delaying a family for, hedonism and self-indulgence gets old, you can in fact still travel with children, money will sort itself out if you’re motivated enough, the future can be a better world if you make it one by raising good people, etc etc. Basically the exact opposite of the messages I got my whole life. We were sold so many lies and now the birthrate is dropping precipitously, it’s like a collective suicide.
Excellent comment. I absolutely agree. The messages we get from society are profoundly anti-natal in some ways. I delayed kids and deeply regret it. As a man I have options of course, but there is a void for sure. I admire the people who understand this (at whatever age) and go for it. I think that is where I am headed.
Thanks for posting.
I agree! This is why we should focus more investment and research into extending the fertility window. We should develop more technology that allows us to have kids later if we want - and encourage everyone to freeze eggs and sperm so this becomes more of an option if you eventually want more kids later on in life.
I agree, Mikhail. I am at this stage myself. I didn't have kids and am now mature although far from being old.
Where I am in the UK I actually do see more older parents. A lot more than I used to. Obviously the women are not that old, typically late 30s. But some of the men are definitely in their fifties. So I do think many have been conned by society and realize almost too late they need to do something. So perhaps this is a growing trend.
You bring up an interesting case. In the article I talked about how it's difficult to regret not having kids because you don't really know what it's like to have them, and difficult to regret having kids partly for evolutionary reasons. But, you can certainly wish you had MORE kids. Anyway, thanks for your comment.
I think this is not quite logically sound. I think it's relatively easy to regret not having kids because we can (and do) certainly have an idea of what it would be like to have them. And evolution has (I'm sure) set our brains up in such a way that we have a generally positive idea of what it would be like. Even if "we don't really know what it's like" before we actually have kids, the idea that we have of it is sufficient to cause regret if we see this idea never becoming reality. It seems to me there are many more people who regret not having kids, or who feel sad about not being able to, than there are who regret having them.
I'm speaking from personal experience as a 43 year old male with no kids (but a strong desire to have them, even if I "dont really know what it's like").
"It seems to me there are many more people who regret not having kids, or who feel sad about not being able to, than there are who regret having them." - Definitely agree with this. I'm not sure, though, that evolution has set our brains to have a generally positive idea of what parenting is like. At least, it seems to me that the more powerful path evolution set up was to undergo a sexual development stage, feel love and lust for someone, have a child as a result, and then parenting modules come online. But I take your point that we can certainly form an idea of what being a parent would be like (even if it's wrong/impossible to know beforehand), desire it, and feel regret if it doesn't happen.
Great. Thank you.
As a parent of two, who started rather late in life, I completely agree. As a man, I knew I could and was happy to have waited, but having kids does in fact relieve some existential tensions. Unfortunately, many of my female contemporaries left it too late, for them. In many cases the current zeitgeist, owned by the Feminist Industrial Complex, fooled, and failed them. Its a huge and growing problem today.
I agree that there is a sense of "letting down the sisterhood" if you become "just a mom." It's a shame when these cultural pressures prevent people from proceeding in ways they would have made them happy. Many of my female clients struggle mightily to "have it all."
Yes, and its a genuine problem. I had kids at 48, but for many many years in Montreal Canada, where I lived, it was very easy to live life as a single in a rich cultural urban environment. Many or even most of my friends and acquaintances married late (or not at all) and many didn't have kids. This is directly tied to low and dropping fertility rate in Canada (and the US). For women who get into this single life mode, its easy to be fooled that it can go on forever.
What was it like having kids at 48? I'm somewhat heartened to see that you did as I'm 43(m) and I would really like to start a family (though currently single). I already start to feel bad about leaving it so late but things just worked out this way in the relationships I had so far. I know as a man I can still father children for a while but of course one also needs to find a partner who is still willing and capable and though I'm not unattractive, I'm also no Leonardo DiCaprio who can keep dating 20 something year olds until he dies of old age ;)
Its totally doable, and yes you need a great wife (which I have). You need to date deliberately, and stay focused, its hard work.
This is the stage I am at. I didn't have them earlier and I am now older, realizing I have made a mistake. Where I am I definitely see more older couples with babies. Many more than I used to. Women in their late 30s with 40s and 50s husbands. Pushing strollers etc.
I think women in particular have been conned by aggressive feminist tropes. And of course the men have been affected too.
But it is nice to see a comment from an older dad. It gives me hope. Thanks for posting.
Thank you. I assume you are male from your name and comment. Def true that Feminism has conned LOTS of people, it is very destructive and has created an ark's worth of women with victim mindsets who have ended their genetic legacy unwittingly. As a man its never too late, although for practical purposes unless you and famous and it gets exponentially harder after 50. Don't give up, date deliberately, date younger but not too young, use good apps for matching, use faith-based resources and connections if you can, open your geography, do good vetting and you can find success.
Absolutely great advice. I am in good shape and youthful, although I guess many say that.
I agree with the faith connection. I am convinced there are late 30s women out there at the same mental stage as me. They partly bought the lie but also drifted a little too far and seek a like-minded man. Hope springs eternal.
Thank you for the advice.
Great post, thanks.
I've never had an issue with anxiety, at least consciously. But I used to fear death (or at least not existing). That entirely melted away after my first child. It just make sense. Genetic code passed on, it's all in their little hands now.
Talk about icing on the cake! :) But you're right, it makes a good deal of sense. Thanks for reading and responding.
Same, I’m not afraid of death anymore. If I were to die young I would have pragmatic concerns like “who’s gonna get these kids raised?” and “I wish I’d been able to gather more money/land/resources/whatever to leave to them,” but the existential fear is gone. I have been a link in the chain of life’s great continuum, I’m happy with that.
Huh, very cool to hear you both say the same thing. I wonder if this is more widespread, that people fear death less after they have children.
I have young kids and feel similarly. My primary concerns about death are practical ones, and my biggest fear now is the psychological impact on my kids if I were to die prematurely.
As with most things after I had kids, my own ego is so far down the list of priorities that I usually don’t have bandwidth to consider it.
Exactly.
I would caution to beware of misconceptions of choice. This is more commonly seen when discussing religion and happiness - Yes, religious people are happier but I cannot choose to believe in god to make myself happier. If you don't want children then having them because some data says that parents are happier is unlikely to work.
I'd disagree with you slightly here because I think those examples are different in two important ways. The first is that when you have kids, there's no going back. Both practically and psychologically, you have to make do with your situation. Whereas with religion, if I'm a nonbeliever today, I can decide to become a believer tomorrow (for happiness' sake), and then become a nonbeliever again the next day. There's no irreversible event; the mind can stay in limbo. The second difference is that there would have been much less evolutionary pressure around religion than parenting. The latent parenting modules I talked about in the article make it very difficult to know, a priori, what your mindset will be like after you have children.
So, while I agree that a person's preference to have or not have children beforehand will affect their experience as a parent, I think this effect is likely to be smaller than for most other decisions in life.
You can't decide to become a believer (or a non-believer). You either believe or you don't - There is no deciding.
I can't work out whether you're taking the piss? 'Hey, patients complaining about angst, have a kid, and redirect it onto them instead (don't worry about Ill effects - people they hang out with will influence them more). At least temporarily until they grow up, and dont want you in their life anymore - then I'll see you again on the couch!'.
But I have to quibble with this: "why does nobody ever say that having kids was a mistake?" Really? I think you're suffering from severe sample bias. Some people are complete wankers or much much worse (all kids at least for some of their life - it's a statistical guarantee that if they hit adulthood they also go through puberty) and their parents would be lying if they said they didn't regret having them. Anyway, the survey data suggest it's about 10 in every 100. E.g: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/08/why-parents-regret-children/619931/
Appreciate the article. It was a good one. And yes, I agree that I'm subject to sample bias. For example, because of my age, most of the parents I know only have small children. So, no teenagers yet. My clients and friends are also well off, so for the most part, they planned to have children. That surely makes a difference. But even still, I would guess that 10% is pretty low compared to the regret experienced for other major life decisions, such as getting married, buying a house, moving, and following a career path. Then you add the social judgment piece and only a fraction of that 10% are willing to admit their regret. So I don't think I'm alone in rarely hearing expressed regret over children.
I get the impression that there is a minimum necessary level of parenting. That minimum level is vital, but is also lower than most people seem to think.
Absolutely. I've seen a few different people make the argument recently -- Twenge in Generations, Shrier in Bad Therapy -- that over-the-top parenting is partly a result of people having fewer children. I think the "minimum necessary" you're talking about was probably the norm for families in the past who had 5-10 children, and in some cases, that lowered parental intensity was better. For one, it meant kids were playing with and learning from other kids more. And Haidt/Gray have been making the argument that unstructured free play is also beneficial for a number of reasons, which you get more of with more siblings and less parental involvement. Thanks for your comment!
I would like, for the record, the note that I do deeply regret having children, and consider it a very large mistake.
You've admitted something that few are willing to. Thank you for reading and for your comment.
If I read this 9 months ago I would be clueless. But this all makes so much sense as a new dad. For the first time in my life no longer centers around my work- rather my work centers around my life. It’s something to pay the bills and allows me to spend the most time with my son as possible. Nothing else really matters anymore- I don’t even have time to dream beucuse I’m still in survival mode. Anyway, thank you- this helps validate what I’m going through.
I'm glad to hear it, and thank you for reading and letting me know.
I have never seen a better example of cognitive dissonance reduction than this essay!
Huh, I hadn't been thinking of it specifically from the cognitive dissonance reduction angle but you make a good point that that's basically what it is. Thanks for reading and commenting.
I like your main point here. I also think antinatalism is one of the most grim, decadent in a destructive way, antihuman ideologies out there.
I also think you're generally (and ahistorically) correct about the "evolved module", although I think it's *mostly* present in a female behaviour pattern/mind. I also think that's why women tend to be overall less creative/productive once you substract making and raising children: I might never achieve anything of importance or even meaning in this world due to the combination of lack of talent and focus/grit but I made two humans with my own body and mind. It does feel like a consolation prize, but it is a prize and it's most certainly consolation ;)
But to say that people never admit to regretting reproducing seems just completely disconnected from reality. Plenty of people do admit that, some even to their own offspring (with often unpleasant results), and others (usually but not always male) simply have no interest in engaging in any way (tho admittedly they might not actively regret it and who knows, maybe the idea that their DNA lives on somewhere soothes their existential anxieties). But I don't think you need this argument to maintain your main point.
Are women less creative? I haven't seen any studies suggesting that. To your point about children being a consolation prize for creative output, my friend used to say that having children is the easiest and most profound form of creation. So, something similar to what you're saying, but he meant for all parents.
Also, I agree that some people regret having children. My point is that you rarely hear it expressed because 1) the sentiment is relatively rare and 2) it's an unpopular thing to admit.
Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting.
Children are a way to leave ripples in the stream of Time.
Re: philosophy, why do people always seem to expect the truth will make them satisfied and feel fulfilled. Nothing about doing philosophy well requires it reduce anyone's existential dread. Maybe the truth just doesn't make us feel great.
Right, that should be in Philosophy 101: "Don't expect this to make you any happier." I remember reading an article about this in the context of therapy: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27112740/. In any case, truth versus feeling is a constant tension in providing therapy. Many times I can EITHER say something to make the client feel good, or give my account of the truth. So your point about the truth not making us feel great is well taken. The way I have been thinking about it lately is that my job as a therapist is to help clients obtain meaning...in that, the truth is often helpful because any meaning based upon it is secure and reliable. But this doesn't mean I do everything I can to bring home every truth to every client. A lot of times that would just be hurtful and mean.
Yes I can see both your points and agree that I'm painting with a fairly broad brush here.